Reply With QuoteNumber one, they need to be set the same....there are offset upper control arm bushings available to cure this problem-Moog, but I don't remember the part number...
No alignment, no how?????? or NO Know how????
Some of you may recall? I've been having problems getting my car PROPERLY aligned. Car is 87 Gran Fury. Front end COMPLETELY rebuilt(properly) per fsm w/ all new ball joints/tie rod ends/t bar anchors and all poly bushings. Initial alignment was done, tech could only get 1.75 deg pos caster on d/s, 1.58 deg p/s. Tech did not properly torque pivot bar bolts so it moved!!! Before taking it back for a redo(free) I disassembled the uca's and elongated the adjuster slots 1/2 " in both directions and cut the pivot bar bolt "nuts" ( actually "U" shaped brackets) on one edge so they would move further out at the front to get more positive caster. Now the tech can get 1.95 d/s and only 1.78 p/s. p/s side physically hits the k member at this setting??? WTF??? I am getting pretty pissed!! All hard parts are good/ not bent, car has never been hit, front ride height has been set. Fsm calls for factory rreset at 1-1/2 deg to 3-1/2 deg pos caster. I had the tech set it at 1-1/2 deg. pos. as a compromise. It goes straight but , has that kinda scary "on it's toes" feeling and is very sensitive to steering input. Has any one ever had this problem??? Any Ideas??? This is really driving me nuts!! I would think that there would be a LOT more "adjustability" in this??? Looking at my old 84 dippy the pivot bars are in the middle of their slots and that car when runnig wore the tires perfect and handled great??? Gran Fury's K frame mount have been replaced w/ poly bushings from PST
---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------
I thought I might add............... When I picked up the car the tech. told me "the steering wheel still ain't right",so ................ I took the car and hauled ass, because any alignment tech worth a fxck knows to align the steering wheel all you have to do is turn to tie rod tubes, YES??? Maybe it's NOT THE CAR???? But the shop???
Last edited by restinose; 09-08-2010 at 06:32 PM. Reason: duh!
Owner/Northeast's fastest lawn ornament
Number one, they need to be set the same....there are offset upper control arm bushings available to cure this problem-Moog, but I don't remember the part number...
www.diamondbackengines.com Yes we're still open
Originally Posted by restinose
Chris.....I first of all know nothing of aligning a front end......but I think you need to take it to someone who does; I suggested Hillman's Garage on Rt. 9W in Selkirk......they did a GREAT job on my late girlfriend's 1988 Diplomat, after two other garages screwed it up.....and gave me a computer printout of the before and after specs.......that car ran true, and handled well, with no tire wear for several years after they were done; talk to John Hillman, and tell him I sent you there!
Those are for the pre-73 Bs, all Es and A bodies.
73+ Bs and FJMs all use a cross shaft arrangement similar to the GM cars.
I forgot who made them, but somebody makes an offset cross shaft. Generally this is used on cars where the k-frames/frame rails start to buckle after so much time has passed (stresses and rust)
Later M-bodies got reinforced frames because of what was happening to the police cars so that wouldn't be a problem.
---------- Post added at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 AM ----------
First off, I agree with R-body, seems like you need to find another shop.
Caster is going to affect your steering wheel return more than "wander toe". Sounds like your toe is set at, or close to, 0. Great for a race car, not good for a street car.
Also, if you elongated the slots, you really just created a wider range for your camber, not caster.
Caster is set by "cocking" the cross shaft in the slots. There is only so much you can angle the cross shaft. You are trying to take something straight and put it at an angle. Those slots need to be more together in order to get more angle.
Hopefully you can get a REAL ASE Certified tech that also knows how to work on "old" cars to fix you up.
Last edited by CudaZappa; 09-09-2010 at 07:46 AM.
1971 Challenger - Autocross & Track Day Project
2010 Hemi Ram 4x4 - Daily Driver
I know just about enough of alignments to probably get me in trouble. Anyway, my late Father-In_law bought a brand new 1987 Plymouth Fury. After he passed away, (my Mother-In-Law didn't drive) she gave the car to my wife. It had very low miles on it, but had been properly maintained. We took it in to get the front end aligned. The guy we use races a SS/GT car & has had people bring their race cars from all over the country to him. He is very meticulous in his work whether it's street or race.
When my Father-In-Law bought the car, there were none around our area, but the dealership found one about 100 miles away that had what he wanted. They had him sign a "non refundable" contract since they had to go get it, so he bought it sight unseen.
Richard was doing the alignment & asked us when it had been wrecked. "Never, it's been in the family since day one." He showed us the markings from where it had been repaired & told us that the way it was repaired this was the first & last time it could be aligned without massive, costly repairs. So it had been wrecked sometime from the factory till it was delivered to the local dealer.
Also at one time there was a well known, national ripoff, make that repair shop that was doing 4 wheel alignments on cars that couldn't possibly have the rear wheels aligned. Yeah they got sued & lost.
You do need to find a very reputable, dependable, recommended person to do you right.
Its just the shop you took it too. Plain and simple. Aligning a bent torsion bar car takes some know how that any tech under 25 years old doesnt have. Dont ask me how I know but trust me I do. Find a different OLDER local owned garage that has techs in there that are in their 40's and 50's working there. You might stand a chance.
Also, if you elongated the slots, you really just created a wider range for your camber, not caster. The theory behind that mod. was that the front of shaft could go OUT further and the rear IN further, thus creating more pos. caster, YES??? I told this dummy to set them BOTH @ 1-1/2 deg. pos. so at least I could drive it. I doubt it was done??? because when I really hit the brakes it pulls like hell. Also I have my doubt as to whether the toe was EVEN RESET since the last time because like I said the steering wheel was not even straight. Toe setting should be the LAST step to the process,and to my knowledge and confirmed by FSM. steering wheel is centered by turning the tie rod tubes, it even says to do this with the car running!! I need to take this to someone who knows what they are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then when I confirm that there is nothing wrong with the car and that I'm not crazy it's off to small claims court with the first shop. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting real tired of shops with million dollar equipment and fifty cent help!!!
---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------
Will do as time permits, you are not the only one who says good thing about Hillmans. I definately like the idea of before and after specs, as they will help substansiate my small court claim. The trouble today is that there are not alot of "old school" techs out there anymore just "parts changers" that just plug it in and do what the computer tells them. A perfect example was the other day the power widow motor stopped working in my (sorry) ford ranger P/U , so I took it out,took it apart,cleaned the brushes and comutator, put it back in and it works fine. If I had taken it to a shop they would have just replaced it for $100 plus dollorsChris.....I first of all know nothing of aligning a front end......but I think you need to take it to someone who does; I suggested Hillman's Garage on Rt. 9W in Selkirk......they did a GREAT job on my late girlfriend's 1988 Diplomat, after two other garages screwed it up.....and gave me a computer printout of the before and after specs.......that car ran true, and handled well, with no tire wear for several years after they were done; talk to John Hillman, and tell him I sent you there!
---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 PM ----------
Another clue that it's THE SHOP, most knowledgable shops can and will tell you specificly what/why it can't be brough up to specs.
I will try this again since we had a power outage when I tried this this morning;
Elongating the slots can give greater range for either/both caster OR Camber; but honestly taht isnt what I wouldsa done; Moog used to sell an offset upper control arm shaft for these cars; I may still have 1 around (Im saving it for "just in case" for the Volare) IDK if that part is still made/available; you may be looking at Ebag for it.
ANYWAY; that car should drive fine with +1.5 caster; (going from memory) "preferred" was like 2.5; BUT caster will NOT wear tires; camber and toe can/will; so if I have to "sacrifice" 1 measurement to get the others it's caster.
I can set your car up all "out" of specs; it will drive fine, not wear the tires; OR I can set it all WITHIN specs and it will drive crappy; OR I can set it all outta spec and wear the tires; drives great but eats tires; how ever you want; I shoot for factory "preferred" settings when possible (they give a wide tolerance, preferred is dead nuts center of the range)
Set up 2 of the same cars with teh same readings and they may not drive the same;
age, deterioration, factory build tolerances, etc as well as tires used, all come into play.
Yes tires; they have a helluva lot more to do with how a car drives than most people realize; just because they are "new" doesnt mean anything;
Cars come in driving OK tires plain wore out (no irreg. wear) and the alignment checks out OK yet the car comes back "pulling"; swap the front tires; sometimes it goes the "other" way other times it goes straight; Ive had to swap out new tires before for this reason;
Or mismatched size; brand' tread design; air pressure etc all play a part;
take "your" car" (whatever it is) and if you know someone with a car with wheels that interchange try this; swap your buddys tires onto your car; drive it; see if it changes;
Often people who'd had, say Michelins on their car and replace them w/ Goodyears
or even among the same brand; take off Eagle GTs and put on Vectors (THAT was a crap tire from the getgo) both Goodyears but huge difference in how taht car drives/handles.
Your Dip has what they call a "slip shaft" alignment; at the last shop I worked at (10+ years' worth) they left all those for me; the other guy just couldnt deal with them; (he'd rather deal with FWD, loosen the strut or dismantle the strut and grind the mount hole oval) cars I could not stand; so I got all the RWDs and trucks; I was fine with that; someone came in w/a 66 Coronet? everyone else went to break; I was all over it; 68 GTO? 63 Falcon? those are what I preferred to align. I spent 18 yrs working under an alignment rack; I still hate FWD!
I am now on disability and work nowhere; but have asked about gettin back into it; no way in Hell for $9.50/hr.... I was making almost double that when I got away from it 5-1/2 years ago;
and ride height has more to do with a car not achieving factory specs than anything; these people who insisted on lowering their torsion bars? they just voided any warranty they may have had on the alignment. that changes the settings drastically and a "low" car often cant be brought back within range until ride ht is "stock";
esp on torsion bar vehicles; I cant tell ya how many (it was ALOT) that came in "off teh scale" and 1 side was 1/4-3/8 lower than the other (usually the driver side was low) set it to match the pass side and the alignment was all great again.
Just to make sure, the ride height is measured at from the isolator bolt head to the ground??? Yes??? It should be set at 12-13" +- 1/4" but equal in all cases? yes?? I have mine set at 12 1/4 " now as measured on a verified flat/level surface. If I could figure out how to post pictures??? I would. You can see,as compared to an unmolested car, that the uca's are at their limits of travel. Also when I put a level on the rims the level inticates a pos. camber setting(top of tire further out) so in "my reasoning" if the camber is set pos. is would eliminate to some degree the ability set set the caster in the pos. because the slots are "used up"????
that 12-1/4 reading is only good for stock diameter tires!
Do you have a photo hosting site such as photobucket etc? If so, all you have to do is copy and past the 'img' tag and paste it here. At photo bucket, there will be a drop down under each pic and you will see several options to choose from. 'IMG code' is the one you want to use.
Ask around the local auto repair shops where they would take a car for a good alignment the first time, I asked at a radiator shop the last time, after I moved from Idaho to Arizona.
I learned that back in the early 80's. Tire shop alignment for a 79 Volare was bad after 3 tries. I found out about a place in Idaho Falls, ID called Bybee's wheels, a shop that was downtown in the business district, of all places.
That guy knew his stuff....
up or down??
The stock dia per door post sticker was 205/70 r15. I now have 245/60 r 15's "s" rated Cooper Cobras on cop car steelies. Which way would you go up or down, how much and why, please explain
---------- Post added at 07:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------
All I have is Kodak "ez share" which it turns out isn't really that easy to share with, but I'm working on it???
your car has what i call sliding bar. some time it takes 2 or3 times to get car to drive stright. ride height might give you less caster adj. the pulling on brakeing probably won,t be cause by the alignment i wound think brake hose or dirty pad, bad caliper. some time the nut that hold the bolt that slide get ditry behide it and won,t move all the way but if both side will only move to 1.75 or close that might be it. as far as setting i like 1/2 deg higher on the right or pass side over the driver side and with camber 0 give or take 1/4 deg and toe set 1/16 to a 1/8 in. or .06 .12 deg it should drive fine . try to get the read out that will tell a more than words. yes i,ve been doing alignment for 20 + years but in ohio you don,t see the same car 10year later.
It's MOST certainly the shop I was looking at it this weekend and from a birds eye veiw the pass. side rebound bumper is centered over the stop below it,the driver's side is almost to the rear most edge of the stop, a difference of almost two inches!!!!!!!!!! not degrees, inches! WTF!!! I wiil be taking it to the shop R-body recomemded in the spring,I still have some rear suspension work to do (install cop car 5 leaf springs and rear aftermarket anti-sway bar w/ ffi bushings) might as well do that first,so proper alignment is done as driven with all parts installed! I suspect the rear ride height will play a part/have an effect on caster to some small degree, YES???
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