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Possible Throw Out Bearing Problem on '59 Plymouth

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  • Possible Throw Out Bearing Problem on '59 Plymouth

    Wondering if the following is a throw out bearing problem: On occasion, when depressing the clutch pedal slightly, my 1959 Plymouth Belvedere makes a loud, deep noise that sounds like a drill; like a drill, drilling into metal. The noise comes from clutch area. Noise disappears when clutch pedal is released. When this happens it is usually on a day that is either moist, hot, or both (not on cool &/or dry days). Happens when clutch pedal is slightly depressed in first gear. To address this problem I recently had the clutch worked on (new t/o & pilot bearing, fork, plate cleaned). However, on occasion is still making this noise. I'm concerned, but how concerned should I be?

    Any input is appreciated.

  • #2
    Throwout bearing make a screeching sound when bad, and I'd look to that first -- but since there is a lot of friction areas in a clutch assembly -- it is hard to diagnose without a close inspection.

    Where is your clutch adjusted at -- as in where does it disengage/engage?
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    • #3
      I've heard TO bearings make different noises depending on how much pedal pressure they've had against them from making a lot of whine to getting almost totally quiet when fully depressed. If the engine has a lot of miles on it, also check to see how much thrust movement the crank has. You can watch the crank pulley while someone pumps the clutch pedal. If you can see any movement, your crankshaft thrust bearing is gone and could the the source of the noise if the crank moves enough.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by vanderlejm
        Happens when clutch pedal is slightly depressed in first gear. ............

        Any input is appreciated.

        Your Pilot bearing is dry...
        His car wasn't that fast, I caught him on the return road and passed him in the pits.
        2006 Dodge 2500 CTD


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        • #5
          I just had a TO bearing crap out on my Dakota this summer; thats the truck I swapped over from an auto to a 5 speed; after only 6K miles the thing started screeching like mad as soon as my foot got near the clutch pedal; working 2nd shift when it went bad, pulled into the neighborhood near midnight to see neighbors outside setting up for their next day's garage sale and the stares I got when I hit the clutch as I pulled in the driveway.... if looks could kill I would certainly not be here to post today... I had to get the whole clutch kit in exchange, as that's how I bought it they wouldn't just swap out the TO bearing.... PITA to pull everything back out for that redo, I was wanting to use the clutch that came with the trans, but thought against it thinking I didnt wanna pull it back out for quite a while, but I wound up having to do so anyway,
          this was (and is again though I asked for something different when I returned the parts) a "Perfection" brand clutch kit.... I didnt notice this on the original but it stuck out like a sore thumb on the 2nd set; "made in China"/once I saw that on the replacement, I looked a lil closer at the 1st clutch set they sold me, and yup, same thing... I have about 5500 miles on it again since the redo; I'm gettin nervous about a repeat... and if I do get a repeat, either they are gonna pay me to pull it again or they are gonna do as I ask and give me something diferent to put back in; I noticed the collar on the TO is some kind of plastic, something I wasn't really happy to see....
          more reason to hate this "global" BS that has been forced upon us.... please bring back manufacturing to the good ole USA, we need products with some pride and workmanship built in once again....

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BK View Post
            Throwout bearing make a screeching sound when bad, and I'd look to that first -- but since there is a lot of friction areas in a clutch assembly -- it is hard to diagnose without a close inspection.

            Where is your clutch adjusted at -- as in where does it disengage/engage?
            Except for first gear, the clutch engages very near the top; first gear need to depress clutch pedal about 3/4 of the way to the floor, otherwise only need to depress about 1/5 way to floor.

            ---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

            Originally posted by Cranky View Post
            I've heard TO bearings make different noises depending on how much pedal pressure they've had against them from making a lot of whine to getting almost totally quiet when fully depressed. If the engine has a lot of miles on it, also check to see how much thrust movement the crank has. You can watch the crank pulley while someone pumps the clutch pedal. If you can see any movement, your crankshaft thrust bearing is gone and could the the source of the noise if the crank moves enough.
            Thanks. Engine has about 5 thousand miles since rebuild, but I will look into this.

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            • #7
              The clutch should engage at least 1 to 1 1/2" before the pedal is all the way up and first gear usually takes a bit more clutch release than the other gears once you get going but 75% disengagement vs 20% might be a bit more than usual but not unheard of. Good setups and people who are good with sticks can usually barely push the pedal down to shift gears....and some can actually shift without using the clutch once they master rpm vs vehicle speed. I've done that out of necessity before but have played that game just because I could

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Cranky View Post
                The clutch should engage at least 1 to 1 1/2" before the pedal is all the way up and first gear usually takes a bit more clutch release than the other gears once you get going but 75% disengagement vs 20% might be a bit more than usual but not unheard of. Good setups and people who are good with sticks can usually barely push the pedal down to shift gears....and some can actually shift without using the clutch once they master rpm vs vehicle speed. I've done that out of necessity before but have played that game just because I could

                Since I have never owned a Mopar with a standard shift, I am not really certain of where to look for the problem.

                I had an Olds 442 Muncie 4 spd that I broke off the clutch linkage arm one Friday.....and I drove it all weekend (a long holiday), without using the clutch at all.....it was a dream to shift! Just match rpm's and speed....slides between gears! Starting from the curb took a little more finesse, though!

                I think maybe we need more info on just what transmission you are using, and what type of clutch; i.e.: what has been done to the car.
                Is this a 3 spd., 4 spd.....and does it have synchos on first gear??? What are you using for trans lube; factory fill on 4 spd. 1971 Duster was auto trans fluid; heavier lube may cause the trans to drag between gears, making strange noises, or hard shifting.

                Trannyman had a good thought.....maybe pilot bearing/bushing??

                I replace the factory 3 prong Borg and Beck clutch on my late girlfriend's '71 340 Duster 4spd., and used a GM style diapragm purple Zoom clutch......worked infinitely better than the factory setup! :angel: :yeah that:

                The only caution is that the clutch may overcenter and hang up if the pedal travel is too far.....so I blocked the pedal travel underneath, so it would not travel as far; diaphragm clutches can hang up at high rpm's, such as high speed shifts! Not fun....as the engine will over-rev!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by R-body_mopar View Post
                  factory fill on 4 spd. 1971 Duster was auto trans fluid; heavier lube may cause the trans to drag between gears, making strange noises, or hard shifting.
                  My 74 Dodge D100 /6 pickup came with ATF too and the book said to use 80/90w if used in heavy duty apps. The trans in this vehicle wasn't heavy duty at all but when I messed the rear case bearing, that's when I found out it had ATF and after fixing it, it got the heavier gear lube. I could feel the increase in shifting effort, especially in cold weather but never noticed strange noises. If anything it was quieter...but it didn't mess up anymore bearings

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                  • #10
                    I can't give you any examples of cars I used to own... but I can give you some info based off my 34 years in the transmission repair business.

                    As Damon says, If your car runs like crap and you switch out the carburetor and it still runs like crap, chances are it's not the carburetor causing the problem.

                    If you got a loud noise in the clutch area, and you change out the clutch, pressure plate and flywheel.. and you still got the noise. Chances are it wasn't the clutch, Pressure plate or flywheel. It could be... but probably not, unless it was screwed up putting it together.

                    You describe your noise as "a loud, deep noise that sounds like a drill; like a drill, drilling into metal" It probably also has a vibration type noise to it at the same time. Like that drill bit is 3" down into the metal and the sides are trying to catch.

                    You will also probably find that the noise, when you catch it just right, will be louder and more pronounced if you are rolling and downshift to first (with the clutch depressed of course).

                    It's louder in first because of the speed (rpm) differential difference of the engine and transmission input shaft. The input shaft, because of gear reduction is spinning faster than the crankshaft.

                    Good luck and let us know how it turns out. Be sure to put some grease on the end of the input shaft when you install it.
                    His car wasn't that fast, I caught him on the return road and passed him in the pits.
                    2006 Dodge 2500 CTD


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by vanderlejm
                      Wondering if the following is a throw out bearing problem: On occasion, when depressing the clutch pedal slightly, my 1959 Plymouth Belvedere makes a loud, deep noise that sounds like a drill; like a drill, drilling into metal. The noise comes from clutch area. Noise disappears when clutch pedal is released. When this happens it is usually on a day that is either moist, hot, or both (not on cool &/or dry days). Happens when clutch pedal is slightly depressed in first gear. To address this problem I recently had the clutch worked on (new t/o & pilot bearing, fork, plate cleaned). However, on occasion is still making this noise. I'm concerned, but how concerned should I be?

                      Any input is appreciated.
                      Based on what you said and not over thinking this, how often do you drive this car?
                      Sounds to me like nothing more then some surface rust on the face of the clutches and flywheel. you say only moist and hot days... It will make a noise if it happens to be a car that sits alot.
                      "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Ben Franklin

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                      • #12
                        Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments.

                        To provide more information: Three speed manual; car being restored (for past 5 years) and kept as orignial as possible; uses 80/90 w transmission lubricant (per shop manual); rebuilt/refurbished/replaced major systems including front end, engine (318), brakes, radiator, carb, clutch (replaced bearings, fork, cleaned plates within last half year) and many other smaller things. Transmission itself has not been worked on; has a non-working overdrive (difficult to get anyone interested in even looking at this transmission, though no hard evidence to this point that the transmission needs an overhaul). The car shifts good, but not great (if not careful, there can be some grinding between 2nd and 3rd), and reverse is not fully syched in that on occasion, will pop out of reverse.

                        Occasional loud grinding noise seems highly associated with hot &/or moist weather (which is quite the issue given we reside on the Texas gulf coast). When it occurs, the noise seems to be associated with low rpms, in first gear, moving slowly if at all, with the clutch only slighty depressed (not fully depressed), and maybe going up a slight incline. The noise strikes me as a grinding noise that I associate with a drill. It is loud. There may be a very slight vibration in the clutch pedal that accompanies the noise. I cannot, though, make the noise happen on demand.

                        Car is driven two-to-three times a week. Generally, though, for short rides of one or two miles. Also, generally at speeds of 35 mph or less.

                        No noticable movement of crank pulley when clutch is depressed/released.

                        As a side-note, less than a year ago replaced the universal joint (car was shaking). Immediately after this, changing gears was very stiff. This stiffness went away over time. The grinding noise started to happen sometime (maybe a few months) after universal joint was replaced, never before. Not sure of any connection, but in case ...

                        Again, I appreciate all the comments.

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